The Ben Maynard Program
"Tell Your Story". Everyone has a story. Not just the famous. This is a guest driven program but when we are "guest free", It's just YOU and ME! I love music and we will talk a lot about it. Enjoy the ride!
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The Ben Maynard Program
Pastor Brian Benson on Faith, Leadership, and the Music of Ministry
When you're navigating the ebbs and flows of faith, it's like listening to a symphony—full of crescendos, diminuendos, and the occasional unexpected solo. This is the melody Pastor Brian Benson and I, Ben Maynard, explore in a heartfelt discussion that ventures beyond the notes on the page. We reminisce about the cassettes that carried us through tough times, the laments of lost favorites, and how music can be both a refuge and a revelation. Pastor Benson draws back the curtain on the personal symphony that has underscored his spiritual journey, from his classical beginnings to the Christian harmonies that now shape his ministry.
Leadership is a dance—one that Pastor Benson knows well, having stepped into his role amid adversity, with the support of his community lifting him into the pastoral spotlight. Our conversation turns to the intricate steps of humility and leadership, fatherhood, and grasping the magnitude of God's love. These are the narratives that shape us, the stories that remind us of the trials and triumphs behind the sermons. We share our own tales of reconciliation and the realization that even as fathers, we're still learning how to mirror the unconditional love of the Father above.
Wrapping up our time together, we ponder the profound and the practical: the role of prayer in our modern hustle, the nature of miracles in a world craving the tangible, and the power of authentic relationships that stand resilient in our faith journey. Pastor Benson and I invite you to join our congregation of listeners, as we seek wisdom in brokenness and growth in every note of life's grand composition. So whether you're seeking solace in silence or the chorus of community, we hope you'll tune in and find a piece of your story echoed in ours.#familymatters #tellyourstory #thebenmaynardprogram #cvcchurch #christianity #christianityexplained #brianbenson
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Hey there, welcome into the Ben Maynard program. Thanks for being here. Let's take a look. Let's start it again. Let's take care of a little bit of housekeeping. I'm nervous because I'm a guest, so some housekeeping first. As a reminder, this program is available on multiple podcast platforms like Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music and Spotify, or if you just search the Ben Maynard program, you'll have plenty of options to choose from.
Speaker 1:As you know, I like to steer everybody towards Buzzsprout, because that's where my website is, and if you can't resist all this right here, or even this over here and you're watching on YouTube, then please subscribe to the channel, Give me a thumbs up and leave a comment. You know I like comments and if you leave a comment, I will always read them on the show and give you a little shout out, All right? Last but not least, follow me on Instagram. All one word Ben Maynard Program. So again, plenty of ways to take in this show for your dancing and listening pleasure. And with that, I wanna bring in my guest today, my pastor at Chino Valley Community Church, Pastor Brian Benson. Thanks for doing this. I'm so excited about this. I really am.
Speaker 2:It's my pleasure. I know we've talked about it a while getting your schedule and my schedule set up. No, no, no.
Speaker 1:Look, in all transparency, you know, I'm honest about this, I'm the one that's bugging him. I'm just like, hey, come on, come on the show, Come on the show. This I'm the one that's bugging him. I'm just like, hey, come on, come on the show, come on the show, come on the show. So, um, yeah, I I've been looking forward to this as probably why I flubbed my opening, cause I'm nervous and and I tried to do a lot of prep work and, yeah, I don't know, I have, like I said, I even had to color code everything, so I don't miss anything, you know. But but, yeah, thank you for doing this.
Speaker 1:It's yeah, it really is. It's an honor and, um, I'm hoping by the end of this episode here, folks, that, uh, you're going to get to know a lot more about Brian and you'll know why it's a pleasure for me to have him here on the podcast. So let's kind of just start with this, if we could. I started to tell you a little earlier this is not a real serious podcast. Okay, there's maybe a couple of serious moments here and there over my entire 41 episodes, but it's not.
Speaker 1:I have a lot of fun, I try to have some fun with my audience and I just do my thing. We don't really talk a lot of politics. It's come up, maybe once. I did have one political figure on the show a while back, a while back. We don't talk a lot of religion, but my audience knows where I stand. I did have a couple of fellows from my Wednesday morning Bible study on the podcast.
Speaker 1:That was so good, that was just such a great episode. It really really was Great conversation with great guys, great men. But my audience knows where I stand as far as my religion, my spirituality, my Christianity. So I don't hide it, but I don't necessarily always talk about it and, like I said, we just kind of have some fun and we talk a lot about music on the show as well, because I do have a love for music. And let me start with that. We're going to go all over the place, people, but let me start with that, since I brought up music, does Pastor Brian Benson like music and what kind of music does he like?
Speaker 2:I would say I do like music. I've grown up around music, so when I was a kid I played accordion. I don't know if you knew that.
Speaker 2:I don't remember if I heard you mention that I grew up playing accordion and actually got third place third place in all of Southern California. When I was like a nine or 10-year-old kid, nice, and played in Christmas programs at church and then actually tried out for my junior high marching band with my accordion and they wouldn't let me try out and so I moved over to trumpet for that and then French horn, and French horn actually helped me get through college and so I did a lot of orchestra, symphonic winds, so music's always been a part of it. Nice. I don't know a lot of classic rock bands. I grew up in a family to where it was classical music or like Christian music, so you know the Gaithers and gospel quartets and things like that or classical music. So that's kind of my bend. So now I just listen to Christian radio stations or Gotcha, you know.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, speaking of Christian music or Christian artists, back in the 80s there was this one band and they were local, I think they were out of like huntington beach and called 441 and they kind of had a cars sound. So it was really cool as hip. I used to really dig them. Um, and I, I had a. I had a cassette tape of theirs. I don't even know how many albums they had out other than just the one that I had. The car that I had at the time was stolen and there went my cassette that I had of them. Really good stuff. I've tried and tried and tried partially because I love living in the past, especially when it comes to, um, I guess, my music, and I really liked that one particular album from four, four, one, two, and I can't find it anywhere. No cassettes, no CDs, no, eight tracks, no, nothing.
Speaker 2:So I well, yeah, but I'm, I'm, I'm old.
Speaker 1:Um, but uh, yeah, I just I'm a big music lover. I am, I always have been, and yes, people, I won't bore you with the story again, but I have been from a very, very young age and it's just something I don't know. Even with worship music at church, music is music. It doesn't matter what genre it is. It doesn't matter, um, whether it's worship music or if it's, you know, a contemporary classic rock or whatever, doesn't matter, but if it hits you right here, it's just good stuff.
Speaker 2:yeah and um yeah, play an instrument. You look like a drummer to me. I don't know.
Speaker 1:No I'm a nothing, and that's the one thing that bothers me. And, and you brought up, okay, I was playing accordion, I'm going, okay, what's one? I went to trumpet, I went to french horn and I was like, oh my gosh, multi instrumentalist here.
Speaker 2:Well, not anymore.
Speaker 1:I don't think I can play any of it now but, but that's the one thing that always bothered me, because I love music so much and and um, I was Well, not anymore, I don't and we never had one rehearsal, so we never had one performance. So really, that's why the air quotes for bands.
Speaker 2:So what did you do in the band? Oh, I was the lead singer. All right, there we go. That counts as an instrument.
Speaker 1:Well yeah yeah, I think people here they know that I tell them I'm a singer of songs and that's, yeah, I'm probably my best audience. But that's one thing that you and I have in common is that you know, first off, to be a lead singer in a band, you have to kind of have I don't want to say I don't want to say an ego, but you have to have a big personality and you have to kind of be a ham, and I always say I'm not a ham, I'm the whole hog, and I think that's one thing you and I have in common and we're going to go right back to that well, no, you are.
Speaker 1:You are. You're a ham and but you do. You have a big personality and I think that's what I enjoy a lot about your sermons and your delivery is that it's it's. It's big without being big and I really feel you getting into it as you deliver it, and I'll go back to Easter Sunday or not, I'm sorry, not Easter Sunday, but good Friday. You came out. This is what I love. I love it.
Speaker 1:I love when he dresses up and you got to clarify that and I don't mean dressing up in a suit and tie, I mean dressing up in costume. I love it, and you came out as Cyrus, right, right, yes, okay, I want to make sure I get that right, which I made up the name.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, but it was a good one. That was a good name and you gave. Well, I'm going to let you speak to it a little bit. I'm talking all the time here, so I'm going to let you speak to it a little bit, because it was so great. I loved it.
Speaker 2:Well, I think so. It's usually Good Friday services and Christmas Eve services, right, and I try to take those powerful moments in Scripture and approach them from a different perspective right of that time period and so I'll have different characters and how maybe they perceive that moment.
Speaker 2:And so Christmas Eve I've done shepherds and I've done wise men, I've done angels and different things, and Good Friday I've done a number of them. So this last Good Friday was on just the thief on the cross. Yeah, you know that story of how Jesus, who didn't deserve to be on the cross, had done nothing wrong, was there were two other men beside him that were criminals, right, and in that time only the worst of criminals would get crucifixion, because it was the most terrific form of death.
Speaker 1:And so this was a. This is a hardened guy.
Speaker 2:And yet, in the midst of that crucifixion moment, this hardened criminal kind of reaches out to Jesus and asks for mercy and says remember me, you know. And and I just, I just remember. I just thought, man, I wonder what led up to that you know like how did a hardened criminal end up hanging on a cross, recognizing who Jesus is as the son of God and Jesus declaring salvation to him on the cross? When all these religious leaders are standing there mocking him, Jesus is still having a ministry to broken people.
Speaker 1:And then he actually I mean, he actually started to feel sorry for what was going on, what was happening to Jesus. Like this guy doesn't deserve this, I deserve it. But because I'm a criminal, I did this guy doesn't deserve this. I deserve it. But because I'm a criminal, I did this, this and this. He didn't do anything. And then he's, and that's when he's, and I think that's when his heart started to turn and he said hey, what about a guy like me? Does a guy like me stand a chance?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and I that, and that's just my favorite part of the life of Jesus is that he seemed to gravitate towards the hopeless, towards the broken, towards the people that culture put aside. Yeah, you know, and you know very much. I don't know. I think I relate with that that, if you know, without Jesus in my life, my life would have been a completely different direction. I'm not getting into everything religious.
Speaker 1:No, no, no.
Speaker 2:That's why I love doing those monologues on those days, just to get out of the textbook of the Bible. I think people just treat it sometimes, as you read it, like a book for school and putting emotion and humanity back in the characters.
Speaker 1:You know, I think maybe, hopefully, that's helpful. Well, and that's another thing that I appreciate about what it is that you do. You know, I in no way am a biblical scholar. I mean, I am trying and I am trying and that's why I enjoy being with the guys on Wednesday mornings and now when I get a chance now, but, um, but that's what I enjoy about your sermons. It's not just okay, let's just read through the Bible and we're going to read it word for word and we're okay, here's verse such and such, such, okay, and then the next verse and you break it down. And that's what I know, that's what we do in our in our men's group, and that's why it's taken us, um, oh gosh, going on two years to do first samuel and second samuel, because we break everything down and go, go over it piece by piece. And I enjoy that. And that's what I enjoy about your sermons too, is you do you break it down and you try to make a simpleton, like me, you put it in terms where I can understand it.
Speaker 2:I think for me I grew up in church to where we did that. We read through the Bible and the pastor says, okay, here's what the Bible says. Now do that. And I always wrestled with, well, how?
Speaker 1:do I do that or?
Speaker 2:even why. Why would I want to do that? And I think those are helpful aspects to give people who are looking at the Bible. I don't think it's hard to understand what the Bible says. I think it's hard to understand what the Bible says. I think it's hard to do what the Bible says in marriage and community in life, you know and I think that's really where, hopefully, you know, sermons get to or Bible studies get to isn't just what does the Bible say?
Speaker 2:I think that's the easy part. The hard part is okay. So how do we do that and why would we want to do that?
Speaker 1:Well, let me ask you this, and I told you earlier, I got my notes. They're all color-coded so I don't skip anything, but they're not in any particular order, so I'm going to. So why Okay, Let me go over here so I get it right. Why Okay, Let me go over here so I get it right. General in general terms. Why do we as, why do we fight? God were so resistant to be committed Christians to live a Christ-like life to the best of our ability. Why is it that we fight that for so long?
Speaker 2:Sometimes we come around to it and then sometimes we never come around to it. I mean, why is that? Well, I would say for me, what I wrestle with one is I like to live for me, you know, and I like to do things that benefit me. I am inherently a selfish, greedy person.
Speaker 2:I'm not saying all people are. I'm not going to put that on everybody else, but I know for me, right? I just feel like I came out of the womb angry, selfish and greedy, and part of the reason it's hard to follow the Lord is that the Bible and Jesus call us to live for others, and that's hard for me. I think the second reason it's hard for me is I don't have faith that what God has for me is actually better for me. I think sometimes.
Speaker 2:I think I know what's best for me, I know what I want, I know what I need, I know what will make me happy and I pursue that, even though the Bible and Jesus says no, that really won't leave. It'll make you happy, maybe for a moment, but it leaves you in a deeper hole, even though the Bible tells me that. I don't see that, I don't believe that, and so I go dig my hole anyway and I think oftentimes, at least for me, it's finally when I get deep enough in that hole and I recognize oh man, god was right, um, that I, I humble myself and go back to god. Yeah, and I think maybe the reason why so many people don't where they get stuck in the hole is, don't have confidence that god lets them come back to him, even when they're in the hole, and so that's what.
Speaker 1:I think makes it hard is we just?
Speaker 2:we live for ourselves and I don't believe that God has my best in mind. We think God has his best in mind and cause. That's what all worldly authority does, all worldly authority. There they're looking after themselves.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:How can I serve them, and so I put that on God.
Speaker 1:And to get a tiny bit political here, that's kind of like our political climate, our political figures. They say I'm serving you when in actuality they're looking out for themselves. Even our Constitution says you know, it's you know, we, the people, by the people, for the people. It's for the people. But it's been twisted and it's been corrupted so much in the last 250 years that it's all become about me by both sides yeah you know that, oh yeah, yeah, I don't get into politics either, just because I feel like both sides are fighting for control over me.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I give control to the Lord. Yeah, that's it, and I guess partly my wife.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think we have to give, we have to surrender some control to our wives, right so, all right. So CVCC Chino Valley Community Church. How long have you been lead pastor at CVCC?
Speaker 2:I think it's about 16 years.
Speaker 1:Okay, so that would be like 2008, somewhere around there.
Speaker 2:seven um, yeah, probably around 2007. I think I came in 2003, um, and then I was associate pastor for a few years and then I became the lead pastor after that.
Speaker 1:Okay all right, what brought you to cbcc? And I ask that question because it's like, okay, not what drives somebody to become a pastor, and we'll get into that too. But what, what? When you're you feel as though you're at that moment where you can lead a congregation, moment where you can lead a congregation. How do you know where to go and find where there's a church that?
Speaker 2:is looking for a lead pastor. Yeah Well, the church wasn't looking for a lead pastor. They had a lead pastor at the time. They were looking for someone to kind of partner with him. Yeah, and I was at a time Gretchen and I were at a time to where the senior pastor I was working with was retiring and so it was time to go find another person to serve with Right and and we're looking for a place we could afford to live Right. Then we're in Orange County and I mean we weren't able to afford rent there, let alone Right Think about ever finding a place we can afford. And so I met the pastor and really hit it off with him and those four years of ministry, ben, were the most enjoyable years of ministry ever for me.
Speaker 1:Here at CBC, your first four years, First four years least productive but the most, the most enjoyable.
Speaker 2:And uh, and so, gretchen, I moved out here, really because of Mark Dane the pastor, okay, and man, we loved him and Mark and I, just we did everything together, our families did everything together and, and you know, I so I just came and helped him do ministry, um, and then, four years into it, his, uh, he needed to resign, his marriage broke up, his wife left him and moved to to Texas, and he decided he needed to move to Texas and follow her and be close to his kids. And our church was left with no pastor. And you made a comment, ben, like, well, how do you know that? Okay, I'm ready to lead a congregation? That wasn't me. I felt the opposite, like I wasn't ready who am I? To lead a group of people?
Speaker 2:We were a lot smaller back then too, and it was just a few people in church, two ladies in particular who just came, and just the quote is Brian, it's time to put your big boy pants on and step into this role. And, and I did, I think I did it assuming it wouldn't work. I think the elders did it kind of fearing it wouldn't work. And here we are, 16 years later. I think we're still worried it won't work. But you know it's been great.
Speaker 1:Let me do this really quick. I forgot to hit this right there. Oh, yeah, yeah, see, I got you right there on the scroll. It is so. You didn't even think you were ready for it, still don't, you know, see? That's why I say you and I are similar in a lot of ways, and I don't think it's a and it isn't.
Speaker 1:It's about being humble, but it's not. It's not a fake humility, just doing this dumb podcast here. You know the first. Before I called it the Ben Maynard program. I was going to call it who's this guy. You know not who's this guy the Ben Maynard show or anything. No, who's this guy. Not who's this guy at the Ben Maynard show or anything. No, who's this guy and that meant with a question mark, and that means who's this guy thinks he can have a podcast, thinks that he can do this when there's so many other bigger people out there doing it, and very successful.
Speaker 1:By the way, this doesn't make any money at all and I never think it will. I don't. It's probably never going to pay me one dime. I just hope to. If it ever generates any money, I hope to just be able to make the money I put into it. That's about it, because I'm in the hole, but I don't complain about it, but it is. I think that that's a great way to approach things is through your humility, and I think that is you being humble, saying I'm not ready for this, or, you know, I don't even know if I'm ever ready, and I've been doing it for X number of years.
Speaker 2:Well, I think sometimes too, I don't think people recognize how little I do by myself. You know, you've seen this, and I mean you see it in sports teams, you see it in basketball, right. This young guy will get drafted by a team and he has a phenomenal year or two in his rookie contract and then he expects all this money, follows the money and goes to a different team, a different system, with the assumption that he's the guy, and then he's out of the league two or three years later because he recognizes, oh, I wasn't the guy, it was the coach, it was the system I was in, it was the other people around me. I think a lot of pastors fall into that. I think they go in with the church and things work and people love him and he's protected and he's effective. And then he goes to a bigger church closer to the beach that pays him more money and the next thing, you know, he's out of ministry four years later because he recognizes, oh, I wasn't the guy, Maybe it was the system around me, Maybe it was the leaders that were coming around me.
Speaker 2:And I honestly believe, Ben, that I don't think that I'm good enough for my role, spiritual enough for my role, spiritual enough for my role, scholarly enough for my role. But I think God put me in a spot where there's good men and women around me and staff people and church leaders, people like yourself, Ben, who just want to come alongside and do things together that it works. And my big fear is man Ben. I just don't want to screw it up. That's kind of how I wake up every morning, isn't? What am I going to accomplish for God? It's all right. How can I get out of the way and not mess up what God's doing?
Speaker 1:That's how I feel every day, just in my Christian walk. I don't want to screw it up, and I know I screw it up, you know so and I struggle with that. I. Sometimes I look at things and I and I say, how can this big, almighty God love a wretch like me, you know, and I'm not a bad guy, but look, I'm certainly not In comparison to God. None of us are right. No, absolutely not. And and but it's, it's a wonderful thing to at least have that, just have that and have that, just have that. Well, just to be able to know that, okay, it's okay to mess up, as long as I recognize it and I talk to God about it. I have that conversation with him, you know, and he's going to let me know. Okay, it's all right. Yeah, you know, but you know yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, I think that's. I think having kids is really. You know, after all my years of seminary and reading the Bible in Greek and Hebrew, I think the greatest teacher in my life has been my boys a little bit of how God loves me and loves others. How many times, Ben? I don't care how many times my kids screw up, there's never a time. If they want to come to me and apologize and ask to start again, I'm going to do it because they're my boys and if there's a time and there's going to be times and there have been- in their lives, where I know they're going down the wrong path and I know my boys and I know if I go and rescue them, they're just going to go down that path again.
Speaker 2:So I'm going to let them go down the path, yeah, and I want to watch them and wait until they fall on their butt. Enough times where they look back and say, okay, pop, help me out and I think that's a lot of times what God does with us is okay. If I stop you for going down the path, you're going to be mad at me for stopping you from going down the path. So go down the path, but just know when you're ready.
Speaker 1:There's always a lesson to learn, and if we stop that lesson from being learned a little too soon, it never gets learned, yeah.
Speaker 2:But there's never a time where I'm like oh my gosh, here come my boys again. There's never because I want a relationship with my boys. You know, and you brought it up. I didn't even have to bring it up.
Speaker 1:But for men who have sons and I have one and you have four, oh wow, although, look, gretchen has four.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Although I can say this in in you know, I raised one son and one daughter and then in the last six years I got the addition of Tess. So I do call her my daughter. She is I, I, I. I treat her as such. I call her that, I love her, just as if she were my own and she's fabulous. So when people ask I have one son and I have two daughters, but but okay, to what we were kind of talking about, and especially when it comes to sons, how do I put this? Okay, we obviously have, we have two fathers. We have our, our biological father, and then we have our heavenly father.
Speaker 1:And I think it's really difficult sometimes for people to to understand, even as Christians, that God loves Jesus, loved Jesus loves Jesus as much as he loves you, because if he didn't, he wouldn't have sent him to die on the cross. What if he loved you more than he loved Jesus? He would send you to die on the cross. Is that something you could handle? He would send you to die on the cross. Is that something you could handle? And when I think about that, it's like whoa, that's a heavy thing to consider. I love my son, let's put it this way my son. Let's put it this way I could never love my son as much as God loves me, or God loved Jesus, yeah Well, never. Because I couldn't send my son to die on a cross for the masses.
Speaker 2:I couldn't. You certainly don't love everyone else as much as you love your son, right and the same with me, same with me. I mean, there is no ministry worth losing my boys over, and I don't think God calls us to do that. I don't think God calls us to sacrifice our children for the good of others.
Speaker 1:He did it.
Speaker 2:He did it. I don't think he calls or expects us to do Now. He wants us to sacrifice ourselves for others.
Speaker 1:He says deny yourself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, pick up your cross daily and follow me. Right so he wants us to sacrifice ourselves for others and for him. But you know, and that, yeah, I think that does give, I mean having sons. It opens my eyes to how much God loves me. Right, it also opens my eyes to, you know, in the Bible it talks about how God sometimes Israel, like, was so rebellious that God is like declaring his love for them, wanting to wring their necks at the same time.
Speaker 2:And I never got that until I had boys. And now I look at him and I'm like, okay, like at the same time, like I love him but I want to kill him at the exact same time, and so I think it really opens up a little bit of that. And then when my children come and repent, when they come and acknowledge Dad, I blew it and then my just readiness to man. It's all good man and sometimes there are consequences. Sometimes there's things we have to put back together. Sometimes those conversations take time right, because there's relationships don't just snap back into place. Sometimes we have to put back together. Sometimes those conversations take time right, because there's there's relationships don't just snap back into place. Sometimes we have to rebuild.
Speaker 1:But man, my readiness and desire to do that and sometimes those relationships if they involve other parties as well, whether you know sons or daughters are, they're married or whatever. Now there are other people that factor into it and it's not just you and your son that have to fix it not that I shouldn't say have to fix it, but you know, right, got to talk things out because sometimes it's another party that's in their ear doing this kind of thing too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, or when they're mad at me, they may bring one of the other brothers with them. So now not only do I have to reconcile with this son, but I have to reconcile with this son who got caught up in this son's issues and listen. It's not always my kids who do it. Sometimes I screw up, sometimes my relationship with my boys break down, not because of their failure, because of mine. Right, you know, and I don't know about you. I wasn't really brought up in a family where the dad apologized.
Speaker 1:Oh no. Absolutely not. So I didn't really grow up knowing how to do that. My dad never did anything wrong, yeah.
Speaker 2:Exactly so. I didn't really grow up knowing how to do that. My dad never did anything wrong, yeah, so I just didn't know how to navigate. That you know. So that's, that's also something too.
Speaker 1:But well, you know what, speaking of your boys, just so everybody knows, why don't you shout them out?
Speaker 2:Call them out. Yeah Well, my oldest son is Andrew uh, 25 years old. Um finishes his education for his doctorate in psychology, I think in two weeks, oh, and then has a year of residency. He's over at the chino men's prison hope I can say that oh and uh doing, you know uh working with uh with the men there at the men's prison.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:He's been enjoying that All right. Noah is 22. Noah is graduating with a degree in political science from Biola University in a couple weeks, and the plan was always for him to go to law school.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay, throughout high school, throughout college dean's list, just killing it in every aspect. But then around last December, ben I don't know if we talked about this Noah just came and said I don't think I want to be a lawyer, I think I want to be a pastor. I think God's calling me to be a pastor. Wow, wow. And the pastor in me was really excited about that. The dad in me was kind of bummed. I'd rather him be a lawyer.
Speaker 1:Being a pastor is hard and the pay isn't always that great and you don't always get Saturdays and Sundays off.
Speaker 2:No, rarely yeah right, right, but yeah about by February he was just like I'm more sure of this than anything. God's calling me to ministry, and so that's been fun. Both of them were swimmers and athletes in college, and both single, by the way, so yeah.
Speaker 1:And I will say this, both very good looking young men too, absolutely.
Speaker 2:They took after their mother. My third son is Daniel. He's a junior at Ayala High School, also a swimmer. He's the science and math geek of the family, fastest of all the swimmers, oh, wow Also. So he's pretty much single handedly knocked my other boys off the record board at the high school and so he's doing well. He's a junior, so another year and then off to college somewhere to work on biochemical engineering or something things that you and I have no, no place in doing nope uh.
Speaker 2:And then the baby joshie. He's eighth grade at canyon hills. Uh, he has uh decided to leave the family business of swim and has pursued the music route, so he's a violinist and quite good at it, and so he has a violin that I I named Sophia, cause it seems like all famous woodwind or a strings people that name their instrument.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and it's almost always a lady now, and so I I called his violin it's Sophia and strings people that name their instrument. Yeah, yeah, and it's almost always a lady now that's true, so I I called his violin.
Speaker 2:It's sofia and um and it's a sophisticated name yes, yes, so I'm you know, maybe there's a sofia out there. Who will you know?
Speaker 1:maybe that's prophetic but uh that on down the line after high school and maybe after college he runs into a Sophia. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So no, sophia's currently, but yeah. So Joshie is finishing eighth grade. He'll be promoting from there, and so I'll have one year with two boys at the same high school Right. So those are my boys, 25 to 13. So I've been in it for a while, that's a spread.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And you and Gretchen have been married, for It'll be 29 years. Nice, that's great, that's great. So if you do the math, you know Andrew's 25.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, yeah, that's awesome, that is, that is great. So if I want to talk, if I want to talk politics, and I got to go to Noah, then If I want to talk politics, then I got to go to Noah, then.
Speaker 2:Yes, noah is extremely less so now.
Speaker 1:I feel like God is slowly slicing that off him, but a year ago he was quite opinionated about politics.
Speaker 2:He and I, we wouldn't talk much because I think he'd just get frustrated oh my gosh, all right, that's cool, so all right.
Speaker 1:so let's go, let's go back, let's go way back, let's take a trip in the way back machine and let's go back to Pastor Brian's childhood. Take us back to the beginning. We know how you ended up being the lead pastor at CVCC, but how did you become a pastor? What was that road? Did you grow up? And I know the answer to this, but not everybody watching does Did you grow up in a church-going household?
Speaker 2:I did. Yeah, I did. I grew up part of a large church. My grandfather was the associate pastor there. A big name, famous pastor is the lead pastor. I grew up going to church Sunday morning, sunday night, wednesdays. We were there all the time. Dad was a leader of the church, grew up going to the school that was affiliated with the church, so did that all the way through high school.
Speaker 1:I have a drinking problem. I don't do it very well. Choking here All right, so go ahead. I'm sorry.
Speaker 2:No, no. So did that all the way through high school? And then, looking back on it, ben, I think I grew up in a, in a family, in a school system that taught me all the things that they wanted me to believe, but it wasn't really an environment that I could wrestle with it or ask questions that there wasn't really an emphasis for me to own it, for myself, to believe it.
Speaker 2:Right, I was just taught to parrot and regurgitate information as if somehow that would leak its way down into my soul. I don't think it did. Um, I believed in God, yeah, but I didn't really have any sort of commitment to God. So when I was 18, graduated high school and I just decided I was going to pursue everything that I felt like the church and my family was hiding from me, and I think my parents knew that they didn't want to pay for any of my education.
Speaker 2:They knew that I was going to do something stupid, and I did. For two years I pursued everything that wasn't of the Lord, but again in hindsight, gratefully, god made me such a nerd and such a dork that I couldn't. I mean, had someone offered me something to smoke, I would have done it Right. Who knows how many baby Bensons there'd be if I wasn't such a nerd.
Speaker 1:But I was. You might have ended up the father of our country and not my dad.
Speaker 2:But it was after that two years Ben was just pursuing everything and just feeling worse and empty and lost that that I. There's just one summary I just said I got to go find a place that I can work this out and the only place I knew of was Biola, and it's a place I didn't want to go two years before, but it was the only place I knew of that I could go and just ask questions and work this out for myself. And that's where I was and all along my grandpa was telling me and my grandma was telling me and telling others that I was going to be a pastor and man, I hated it and you're like no way.
Speaker 2:Even when I found my way back to the Lord and committed my life to him, I wanted to be a doctor. I wanted to be a pediatric oncologist. That's what I wanted to do. I love science, and pediatric oncologists just seem like something where you could benefit others and help the needy, but also make a lot of money and have have a lot of debt, though, too. Right, yeah. But I just, and so I tried everything like that, and I knew in my heart, I think at that time, ben, that God didn't want me to be a pediatric oncologist. But I didn't care, and and and I just.
Speaker 2:It got to a point where God just got in my way at every, at every point, and he wouldn't let me be successful in anything, things that I would be natural to get at before man. I just couldn't find my way out of a paper bag after, and so it just came to a point where I was like, okay, I give up, I'll be a pastor. And I was grumpy about it, I was frustrated with it, but I'm like, well, he's not going to, let me do anything else, so I might as well be a pastor. And I remember going to my grandpa and it's like okay, fine, I give up, I'll submit, I'll be a pastor for God. And my grandpa asked me. He said do you want to be? I'm like, no, I don't want to be a pastor. And it's like the last thing the church needs is a grumpy pastor. And so he said go back. And you either got God's call of your life wrong or God needs to change your heart. And at that point I was just ticked. I can't even be obedient to God now, right, but that summer, been that summer, god just changed my heart.
Speaker 2:In a matter of months I went from the worst job in the world is being a pastor to now like it's, like it's what I exist to do. I exist to be a dad to my boys and a servant of the church and um, so that's. That's how it happened. And I just got out of college the fastest way I could. I was like, okay, well, now how do I graduate? Because I got to get to seminary. So the fastest way out was communication studies, and that's where I found out that I was probably a C student up to that. And then, when I got to a spot where all of my exams were either speeches or papers and I ended up graduating, spending a couple of semesters on the honor roll, see, just because I was like, oh okay, maybe this is something that I'm good at writing and speaking and that sent me through seminary and a long, windy road to here.
Speaker 1:And that sent me through seminary and a long, windy road to here. Yeah Well, you kind of answered it a little bit. My next question but does Pastor Brian not pre-Pastor Brian? Does Pastor Brian not the grumpy guy? Does Pastor Brian get mad? Does Pastor Brian get angry? And how do you handle that?
Speaker 2:Not well. It's funny If you ask my boys that they'd probably start laughing, because I think that's probably the area I struggle with the most. And I said I feel like when I came out of the womb I came out mad. I don't know why I don't have a hard life, but man, I think I have such a short fuse and I think that's one of the areas that I just wrestle with the most. And it's funny because some people don't see it. I think if you ask the staff, if you ask a lot of church people, it Right, you know, uh, I think if you ask the staff, if you ask a lot of church people like they, they don't see it cause I work so hard. But I think the people that would probably see that component the most uh, are, are, are my boys, and that's probably been the moment or the part, you know, where I said I have to like that's not always their junk that breaks our relationship, that causes bumps in our relationship. Sometimes it's mine.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And I think so often that's really the aspect that I have to go to them about is I don't always handle my stress and frustration towards them in the best way, in the best way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that, just as people but I think mostly men the ones we're hardest on are the ones closest to us, the ones that love us the most. You know, like you said, really you know people in the office, at church, people throughout the congregation. You know they don't see you get angry, you know they don't see with a scowl on your face or anything like that. But when you get home, anything that's going on it's happening that day, that, whatever it is, that's when it comes out and we do, we, we, we tend to be hardest on the ones that love us the most and and I think it's sometimes it's hard for us to recognize and and if we get called out on it, it's even harder for us to, for us to handle too.
Speaker 1:no one likes to get called out on their stuff, even when we know we're wrong. We don't like to get called out, and I talked a little bit about humility earlier, but that's when we let pride get in the way.
Speaker 2:I think pride is an underlying aspect of anger, pride and selfishness, because I've found that I get most angry when someone tries to take something from me okay. When someone cuts in line in traffic, when I'm ready to go to bed and my boys come in with a problem, or you know when, when someone interrupts what I want, that's when I get angry, and I've just learned like I'm. I'm still learning how to handle it, but I think self control for me is often I just zip it when I'm mad, when I'm angry.
Speaker 2:I just get quiet. You know that old saying grandma used to always tell me if you can't say anything, nice, don't say anything and I really take that to heart and one of my sons. Well, two of my sons really struggled with anger growing up, and both of them now you'd never know They've grown in such self-control. I mean, that's my goal with my kids. All of them are better than me in every aspect.
Speaker 1:I think that's every parent's goal is you want your kids to be better than you. Boys, girls, it doesn't matter. You want your kids to be better than you. You want them to have a better life. You want them to have it easier than you had it. Um, we just want what's best for our kids.
Speaker 2:We love them that much.
Speaker 1:And still, I'll bring it back to God a little bit. And still we can never love our own as much as God loves us.
Speaker 2:Well, and then with that, then, ben, I think we'd say we can never love our kids as much as God loves them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's true too. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, but anyway so, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely so, but anyway so, yeah so Pastor.
Speaker 2:Brian gets mad. Pastor Brian doesn't always handle it well and to help with that, Pastor Brian usually just goes in his office, closes the door and tries to stay away from people until I work my way through that.
Speaker 1:So because some guy sends him a text hey, can you come on my podcast? Come on.
Speaker 2:You know that kind of stuff yeah.
Speaker 1:So all right, now, let's, I want to prayer. Let's talk about prayer a little bit, okay. Why is it as Christians? Why do and I speak in generalities, folks, I'm not pointing anybody out, I speak in generalities folks, I'm not pointing anybody out, I speak in generalities why is it, as Christians, we seem to struggle with prayer? And look, I'll be the first one. Yes, I'm speaking in generalities, but I'm also speaking about myself, because I do, I don't, you know, is it? Do you think it's? We don't have a confidence that we're good enough at it? Or just laziness, what is it?
Speaker 2:I think I would respond, ben, and say I think American Christians or Western Christians because you don't see this issue on a lot of other aspects of the country, to where they don't have like God is there it's. It's not that they believe God is their best option. God is their only option yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:When, when I go to the fridge and the fridge is bare, I or my wife go to Walmart and we fill the fridge, yep, I don't pray. I don't even pray oftentimes at Thanksgiving, recognizing the privilege I have to go to Walmart and fill the fridge.
Speaker 1:We just do.
Speaker 2:We have two fridges to fill stuff with and two freezers right. Other places, christians in other parts of the world. They don't have retirement accounts to rely on in their old age and so they pray in faith that God would provide. They don't have a 403B plans for their children's education. They rely and trust that God provides and trust that.
Speaker 2:God provides. I think for us and for me, one of the reasons why prayer, I think, is third or fourth down the rung, naturally, is because I control rung one, two and three. I have a savings account, I have healthcare, I have access to doctors, I have access to specialists, I have access to bankers, to credit cards, to all of these things. I can handle my own stuff. I don't need to rely on God. I would say that is at least a huge part of why Western Christians, american Christians, struggle with prayer is, I mean, we don't need God to provide for our needs. I'll do that, my dad will do that, my mom will do that, my pastor will do that, my teacher or whoever. I think that's really the discipline for us.
Speaker 2:Ben is to recognize we need to elevate God over retirement accounts, over health insurance, over my political party, over all of those things that we trust to handle our needs and our affairs. We need to first go to the Lord and that takes discipline. And I think it takes relationship right, because if you're like me, you don't always think about it. So sometimes it takes someone else like hey, ben, I think we should pray about this. You're like, oh like, if you're like me and always think about it, so sometimes it takes someone else like hey, ben, I think we should pray about this.
Speaker 1:you're like, oh, like you're not like right no, I don't want to pray about.
Speaker 2:It's like oh my gosh, why didn't I not think of that? Well, we didn't think about it because we didn't have a need for it and and and when it comes to prayer.
Speaker 1:You know when somebody is having a tough day, you run into them, whether somebody you know, somebody you don't. Sometimes you just run divine appointment. You run into somebody just on the street and they're having a tough day and maybe the worst thing you could say is hey, I'll pray for you, you know you'll be in my prayers tonight and that is because we're going to forget about it. Yeah, so the easiest thing to do is to pray right then and there for them. But I think maybe sometimes and I and I can put myself in this situation too from time to time you don't exactly know what to say.
Speaker 1:But, as I said, prayer is just a conversation between you and God, and now you have a third party involved and the only thing look, they're having a tough time. The best thing you can do, the only thing you need to do, God, please help this person. In Jesus' name. Amen. And you're good, because God knows what's in your heart, he knows what's on your heart and he knows what you're saying. God doesn't care if you're good at prayer or bad at prayer. He just wants you to talk to him.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Well, and I think that's a good point, Ben, because I think so often. We think about prayer, we think about asking for things, Right, you know. But if your relationship with Catherine only revolved around you asking Catherine for stuff hey Catherine, can you help me with this? Hey, Catherine, can you help me with this? Catherine would be like, well, I don't feel like we have a relationship. I'm more like your business partner your surgeon, or whatever.
Speaker 2:Right or whatever. And so I think part of prayer is you know, someone much smarter and older than me said something like our prayer life is a thermometer for our spiritual life, right? And so, you know, prayer is really designed to align our heart with God, and there is this time of request, but there's also a function of it that says but not my will, god, your will, you know, be done. I had someone last week come and just say hey, brian, is it weird that I sit on my deck and I watch the sunrise and I just have a conversation with God about it, about how beautiful it is and the science of it. And I'm like no, I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
Speaker 2:I do think there's probably something weird about that just because it's uncommon, but I think there's something right about that. Like, here's a guy who just he's starting his day just acknowledging God, right, what God does, and um, so I do think there's a part of prayer. There's the request part and the prayer for other people, um, but I think there's also just the communion. You know, the Bible says pray without ceasing, like throughout your day, recognizing, praising God, like having this constant conversation in and out, and it's just as simple as whispering his name from time to time.
Speaker 1:You know you'd be driving down the street and guy cut you off instead of getting mad. Thank you God, thank you Jesus. You know something simple like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I picture it kind of like texting conversations, you know, like I'm not constantly having a conversation with Gretchen. Yeah, but throughout the day I have an ongoing conversation with Gretchen because she'll communicate something to me and then I communicate back. Sometimes it's a question, sometimes it's a yes, I agree. Other times it's OK, fine. But there's this ongoing conversation and I think people are like think people are like pray without ceasing what.
Speaker 2:I can't ever think about anything else that steak I'm going to have tonight when I get home but, as you're going through your day, there is this thread of a conversation that's influencing and impacting your life.
Speaker 1:I can see what I'm doing, see for me. When it comes to prayer, I don't like to ask for anything for myself, because I feel like, especially in I think I've mentioned this to you before and if I haven't, then you're hearing it for the first time so, yay, you're not thinking to yourself oh God, shut up. Already the last six years of my adult life have been the best six years of my adult life, absolutely the best. And what I mean is throughout our lives. You know, you have one girlfriend, for guys or girls, you have a boyfriend. You have a boyfriend or girlfriend. You're you have a boyfriend. You have a boyfriend or girlfriend. You're dating for a while you break up. The next one comes along. Oh yeah, she's the best, she's the greatest, and then you break up with that one, and then the next one's the best.
Speaker 1:And everyone is the best. Everyone afterwards is the best. It's always better than before. So it's easy to say that. But the reason why I say that and I justify it this way, is that I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that God looked upon me, he looked down on me and I think we shared I think Catherine and I shared this. We met on a dating app. It was a swipe right, swipe left app. It wasn't Tinder people. I know he had me swipe right. He said this is the one In the last six years of my adult life.
Speaker 1:it has brought me back. She, catherine. She brought me back to church. She brought absolutely zero drama in my life. She respects me as a person, as a man. She provides everything that I need in an equal partner, in our relationship and in a Christian life as well, and I give her absolutely.
Speaker 1:I mean other than God on earth. She gets 100% of the credit. She honestly does, and I hope she can't hear that's not a soundproof door, but I hope she can't hear because I know she'll be embarrassed by it because she's so humble and she doesn't see herself that way. But she is the absolute greatest thing that has ever happened in my life is the absolute greatest thing that has ever happened in my life, because the years in my adult life prior look, I got my kids from it and that's beautiful, but it was just so drama filled all the time. It was up and down, up and down, up and down, and it's just not like that and that and that's why I don't like to yeah, I'm bringing it right back back around now, folks. That's why I don't like to ask God for a lot, because I feel as though he's been so good to me already.
Speaker 2:Yeah, same, yeah Same.
Speaker 1:I uh, I don't want to be selfish. I feel like it's selfish to ask for something. You know I'll ask me to watch over me, do the protect, whatever that kind of stuff, but I don't want to ask for anything.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know if it's selfish as much as maybe recognizing. I mean, ben, I think you would agree with this. God's already given me so much more than I deserve or earn. My boys think that we're the poorest family in Chino Hills, and we may be, but even the poorest family in Chino Hills is richer than most in the world. Yeah, you know, true, the family God gave me, knowing the brokenness that exists in my heart, yeah, and still have a relationship, a great relationship with four boys. The lack of natural husbanding that I have in my heart, right, it's something I've had to learn it's not inherent.
Speaker 2:You have to learn it, but God gave me a wife like Gretchen very much the same I credit. Gretchen People come to me and say wow, you must be a great dad, you have such great boys. No it's pretty much all my wife.
Speaker 2:And you know, I agree, I think the same way you talk about Catherine is the same way I talk about Gretchen, whereas I think God placed Gretchen in my life as um, but also as a buffering agent, as a better set of eyes. You know, gretchen sees things better than I do. Um, I'm reactive, uh, you know, you and I are similar. We're we're high flyers Like we. We just shoot from the hip and we love it. Right, but shooting from the hip you wound a lot of people.
Speaker 1:And sometimes you get a little high strung too yeah.
Speaker 2:Or you get a little fired up. So yeah, but I think I so often when I approach God, I approach him from the heart of man. You've already blessed me with far more than I deserve or earn. But here's the thing God still desires us to come Right. I mean, he doesn't, and I think it's that humble heart of God. I already know I'm not coming to you thinking I deserve. So I think a lot of people think they deserve God to respond.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:I don't. I don't deserve God's response. But God has offered me his response and I think that's you know same with again bringing it back to our kids. I would hate it if my kids man, if there's something you need, you know and it's getting more and more to the spot of my kids get older and their requests get more expensive their response is often I don't have money for that, but I never want them to not ask, because it's the asking that I think shows that relationship and that confidence.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I don't think God minds if you ask. I just think what his desire is to recognize what he's given you already. Yeah, right, not out of like demanding recognizing he's already given you far more than you deserve or earn, just by giving you a son Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but. But there is that relational component of that, and I mean, even Jesus asked right that prayer of Gethsemane. Hey God, if there's any way to do this salvation thing without me taking the path you're sending yeah, exactly, I'm in for it right like I'm I'm down, bring it out, please but, yeah, not my will, but your will be done.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, I think that's the, I think that's the trick for people like you and I to go. It's like god, you've already given us more than we deserve to earn. Here's something that I just I feel like I need, I feel like would benefit my life or, on behalf of someone else, god, I think there's something that would benefit Ben and that would enhance Catherine's life. But, god, I trust you with it because I know you love Ben, I know you love me and you see things differently than I do, that your ways aren't my ways. So I trust you with it. And if you don't want to give me what I think I need, like, that's okay.
Speaker 1:So, talking about prayer, does God still work miracles?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Hands down. I don't like to ask questions that can be answered with one word yes or no but I did.
Speaker 1:I just did right now, because there's some people that don't feel that God works miracles anymore, and maybe it's their miracle of well, he didn't heal my sick brother, he didn't heal this person or that person, and maybe that's the miracles that they're looking for. Although God still heals, he still heals. Do you think it's more that belief comes from they? Just we talk about our timeline is not the same as God's. You know, a thousand years is like two days to God, you know. So things don't happen on our timeline, which is when we're always requesting, and his healing for somebody might be different than our idea of healing for somebody. You know, somebody that's sick and we're asking for healing. Well, maybe that healing is. I'm going to bring them home with me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, and sometimes he I mean the Apostle Paul prayed for God to remove whatever the thorn in the flesh is Right and Christians love to argue about what the thorn is that they missed the point of that passage, right? Paul three times prayed to remove the thorn in his flesh. Some say it's blindness, some say it's arrogance, some say whatever. But he prayed three times and in the language it's as if Jesus responded three times no, no, no. And the last time we get the, my grace is sufficient for you. My power is perfected in weakness, in other words like hey, paul, you know what. My purpose for you and for others is going to be more clearly demonstrated by me not healing you. You think about Jesus' life, walking through all the people that he healed. What people forget is what about all the people he did? What about all the people that couldn't? You know that. One story where these friends cut a hole in the roof tore their friends down because they couldn't get their friend to Jesus because there were so many people around.
Speaker 1:What about all the?
Speaker 2:other people who didn't have good enough friends come up with that ingenious idea to lower him down the roof. You know there's so many people that didn't get healed by.
Speaker 1:Jesus. But isn't there a passage and look, I cannot quote scripture that says, and I'm paraphrasing it Jesus healed them all, something like that.
Speaker 2:Well.
Speaker 1:Here I'm quizzing Pastor Brian here, seriously.
Speaker 2:If it says something like that, it was probably talking about a vicinity of people, not all people everywhere.
Speaker 1:I guess the bottom line when people may have doubts that God still works miracles, that Jesus isn't around, there's no presence of Jesus anywhere, is that he said I am God. I'm gonna blow this one. I am the same as I've always been, yesterday, today and forever, never changing, never changing. And if God says it, if Jesus says it, it's so, I mean there's perfection there. Nobody lies, they don't lie here. So if that's what it says in the Bible, then we have to stand on the word of God. We can't stand on observation or conjecture or anything like that. We have to stand on the word of God.
Speaker 2:Ben, I would say God clearly does miraculous things still today, God does. Does miraculous things still today? God does. I'm not sure if God gifts individuals to do miracles. Today, Some say yes, some say no. Does God still do miracles? Yes, I've seen it. I've seen it in my family. I have seen it within people in the church. I've seen marriages brought back together, where I'm hearing like they're in my office and talking about how messed up their marriage is and I have to just keep repeating in my head keep your mouth closed, keep your mouth closed, Because it's just like how did it get this bad? And yet God?
Speaker 1:brings it back? How?
Speaker 2:did it get this bad and yet God brings it back. I've seen healing in my own kids' lives. So I do. I think God does miraculous things. I don't think God does miracles every time we ask, because our ways aren't his ways and sometimes his will is different than my will. But absolutely I think the Bible says you have not because we ask not. And sometimes we ask on wrong motives, which I do, that too you know well. God do a miracle in my life, not for your glory, but for my comfort, or my glory or my benefit or my kids' comfort. That's not always the right motive, right? So you know the Bible says we have not because we ask not. And other times we ask with the wrong motives and other times it's not what's best for us. But I totally believe that God still does miracles.
Speaker 1:He said so Yep, same yesterday, today, today and forever. So that's what that means.
Speaker 2:And just to say, I think sometimes people think if the pastor prays for me, then it carries more weight with God than if Ben prays for me. And I would say, no, I don't see a scriptural basis for that. I think so often people venerate pastors up to the spot like God hears me more than you. I don't think that's the case. I would even say I think there's probably instances where God hears others more than pastors, sometimes the way pastors are living and praying. So you know so.
Speaker 2:I think, with that, I think you have the same opportunity to bring someone before the Lord as I do, and I think that's one of the things that the church has struggled with, as we've lifted pastors up to celebrity status and superstar status. Yeah, to celebrity status and superstar status. It's almost like a whatever you call that teeter-totter thing to where?
Speaker 1:as the pastor rises in honor and stature.
Speaker 2:I think what that naturally does is lower in the mind of others, the role of the average Christian and the role that you're a priest, you're a child of God, the same as I do Now. Our roles on how we serve God may be different, but your value and your power and your opportunity through Christ, you have the same spirit as I do. I don't have more spirit than you. We have the same Holy Spirit. One Lord, one faith, one baptism, one hope, one calling right. That's what Paul says in Ephesians 4. So you know, I think.
Speaker 1:See, I couldn't say, oh, this is what it says in Ephesians 4. I couldn't say that, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I get paid for it. I get paid to do that. So I would really as we're talking about prayer, right, I prayer. I think my encouragement wouldn't be okay. We need to get more pastors to pray. I think we probably need to lower pastors down a few rungs in terms of celebrity, status and importance and elevate the role of Christian. And the role of the pastor isn't to have authority over Christians. That's Christ's job. My job, the pastor's job, is to serve Right, so that would be my thing. I think, ben, you have just as much opportunity to pray miraculous power of God into someone's life as I do.
Speaker 1:And then one of the big things that we as Christians struggle with, but it's I shouldn't say but, but it's right in the mission statement of CBCC, and not that we need a mission statement, because this is what the Bible tells us to do anyway, and that is to go out and make disciples of Christ, and that's probably the hardest thing in a Christian's life is to go out and tell people, like Jesus said, deny yourself, pick up your cross and follow me. But I mean, we don't have to use those exact terms, but we have to shepherd those people to bring them in. Yeah, and we struggle with that.
Speaker 2:I think we struggle with it because we misunderstand it.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:You know, when we think about sharing our faith, we think about well, we have to have enough time where we can go through this gimmick, this Roman's road or this five fingered hand, or we have to memorize this spiel and get through it with a person and then, after one spiel, ask them do you want to sacrifice everything that you're living for and give it to Jesus? And if they don't say yes, right then then God must not be moving in their lives. And I think we have a wrong perspective. And I agree with you. I think it's the weakest part of our ministry as a church is everyone sharing their faith.
Speaker 2:But my goal is, man, if everyone shared their faith at one time, and what I mean by that isn't one conversation, but if, every year, ben, each one of us say okay, god, who's one person you're putting in my life that doesn't see you as I do?
Speaker 2:And then I just live life with them for a year. Maybe it's going to take two, maybe it's going to take ten. I mean, my grandma and grandpa pursued me and prayed for me forever, sued me and prayed for me forever. And so I think that for evangelism, man, if every Christian just did that, if every Christian just picked one person and doesn't have to be a stranger, don't need to go door to door and do weird like let me give this fake questionnaire to try to get in your living room. Like if we just met someone at work right or at school or in the neighborhood, where we just help them see Jesus as we do and maybe let them help us see the world as they do, and there's probably plenty of people in our lives already, be it friends or family, that we can have those conversations.
Speaker 1:I know for me and it it's kind of difficult. I don't want to be a salesman. I used to do that and I don't and nobody wants to be sold. That's why there's a no solicitor sign on my door.
Speaker 2:I don't need anybody selling.
Speaker 1:No, thank you. I already know the whole spiel, but I guess my way of trying to um bring people along is just to live, just to, to, to live the life I live and lead by example.
Speaker 1:That's right, you know model without trying to pound it into anyone's head, I just try to get, whether it's with my kids, my family members, and you know. So many people say oh yeah, I'm not a Christian, I'm a Christian, I'm a Christian, I'm a Christian. And okay, well, you know, I mean, america was founded on Christian values too. So does that make everybody a Christian? But okay, great, you're a Christian. So you already believe in God. Now what's the next step?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Well, I think that's. The huge part is, I do think there's a modeling aspect, Ben, that you said, but I also think there is a truth of God that we can speak in as it comes up. We don't have to every conversation like you said, sometimes politics comes in, sometimes religion comes in.
Speaker 2:We're just having a relationship and whatever comes up in a relationship, we're going to talk about it. And in my relationships, man, if we're talking about something the Bible speaks of, I'm going to bring that in, because that, to me, is the ultimate source of authority and truth. And you know, my grandma was so good at that. She could turn it, she could weave Jesus into anything that was going on in life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but then you're a Bible thumper, come on. You're a Bible thumper if you're beating people over the head with it and you're a Jesus thumper.
Speaker 2:Come on, you're a Bible thumper if you're beating people over the head with it and you're a Jesus freak.
Speaker 1:Yeah, come on. Yeah, well, you know please, I tell you what.
Speaker 2:There's worse things, but I think if you're a Jesus freak with the thing of like, hey, I just want to let you know what I believe.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, and we're not trying, I'm not trying to cram it down your throat. My job isn't to save people. My job is to point people towards the person that saves people. And you don't want to go see Jesus. That's on you. My job is to make sure you know where he's at. You know and bringing it back to my boys. I mean, if my boys reject Jesus, the only thing that's going to keep me sane is that I know that they had every opportunity to go to him.
Speaker 2:They know where he's at, yeah, they know his invitation, they know how to get there and they know that they can go there anytime. I mean, that's what's going to keep me saying. I think the same thing with with our community and our culture and our neighbors and our coworkers is you don't want to follow Jesus. That's between you and Jesus. But I want you to know. It's what the Bible says about it here's an invitation, and there he is yeah and I'll love you either way, like we're still friends.
Speaker 2:You don't want to love Jesus, that we're still friends. I between the two of you, I hope you change your mind yeah and I'm going to ask you about it every now and then because it's important to me and I love you, but we're still friends. We're still friends and I think so often, as Christians, we either want to save people in one conversation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can see that. Or if they reject it, we're like ah well, then we're offended too.
Speaker 2:We're offended and we're done. I guess we're. Oh, you don't, you don't see Jesus, I do. So now we can't be friends Like well, okay, Now they're really not going to.
Speaker 1:I mean, that's not how.
Speaker 2:Jesus did it. People came back. Nicodemus came back multiple times, yeah.
Speaker 1:Ask him questions. And I think there's also a fear in when you're trying to lead somebody or you're trying to evangelize to somebody I think we can all be. There's a fear of being called a hypocrite the first time we mess up. Wait a minute. I thought you were a Christian. I thought you went to church all the time. What's the matter with you? And you did this. You said this whatever it is, we don't want to be all the time. What's the matter with you, you know, and you did this. You said this. Whatever, whatever it is, we don't want to be called hypocrites. And but that's to me that comes from someone who has, who doesn't have the understanding that just because you're a Christian, just because you're a believer and you go to church, you pray, you try to live a Christlike life, you're still going to screw up. You're still going to mess things up.
Speaker 2:But isn't it? Don't you think that Christians are oftentimes like our dads? Remember, we went back to the conversation where I was like I can't remember a time where my dad apologized.
Speaker 1:Can you?
Speaker 2:remember a time where my dad apologized? Can you remember a time where a Christian apologized? You know like I think. Again, we want people to understand we're flawed people, but is that how we present ourselves? I don't think we do. We present ourselves to culture. Look how good I am. We paint a more perfect picture and then we're surprised when culture looks behind the curtain like you're just a little man pulling buttons. Instead, why don't we come in and say I'm a broken creature?
Speaker 2:And that's what I have found. I've found like look, my biggest fear becoming a pastor is people recognizing that I'm an idiot. So I just tell people from the get go look, I'm an idiot. The. I just tell people from the get-go look, I'm an idiot. The God is called and I'm doing my best to serve God, people from the lowly position. I am right. And then what are people going to say If they think I'm an idiot? Well, I told you that at the beginning. If we, as Christians, lead with our brokenness again back to the power of God, is perfected in our weakness, right. If we want people to see our brokenness again back to the power of God, is perfected in our weakness, right. If we want people to see the miraculous power of God, don't show Ben Maynard after Catherine. Allow people to know that.
Speaker 2:Ben Maynard before and then allow people to say, oh my gosh, look what God did in Ben. And that I think would shift things in culture If Christians would. Instead, leading from a position of power, leading from a position of authority, leading from a position of politics, leading from a position of look at how rich I am or great I am Right, Leading from a position of brokenness. Position of brokenness. I was like man. The difference between me and an unbeliever is I recognize that I'm forgiven for my brokenness and they don't. That's the only difference, and my life has changed as a result of that, and sometimes their life isn't as a result of that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. No, that's great If the non-believer could really see the people who walk into a congregation. They're not perfect. They are some of the most broken people in that building, you know, or in the community, but it's what has transformed in their lives and made them what they are now and there's just a huge misunderstanding and all of that. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And not just in culture, but in Christians. Yeah, you know people come to me and talk to me as like hey, we're getting a divorce. Well, why didn't you come and tell me you're having trouble before?
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:So many times people ask questions about their gay friends, gay children or whatever. Their question about their gay friends, gay children or whatever their question isn't is homosexuality right or wrong, or can I have a gay child? The question is always related to am I going to get in trouble if I had someone call me once the day before Easter Like, oh my Brian, oh my gosh Brian. I think I messed up. Like what happened? I invited my neighbor to church. Okay, right, yeah, well, they're gay, okay it's like, is it okay?
Speaker 2:like sure, like I think people are more concerned about getting in trouble with their church, yeah, than getting help for their lives. Um, and I think you know, people are more likely to go to a counselor, a teacher, a police officer for help than a pastor. Why is that? Other than I think, instinctively and historically they know pastors don't come from perspective of brokenness, they come from perspective of authority and righteousness, and people don't feel safe in acknowledging their brokenness.
Speaker 2:And I think that is something our church does well in. I think our church has really grown in an ability to acknowledge man. I'm doing my best. I'm still growing in this. I'm still growing in this. I can still be a Christian man and still not be a perfect husband, a perfect father or a perfect pastor, but it's not okay to call myself a Christian man and not be committed to growing into a more perfect Like. I want to be a better pastor and a better husband, a better father and hopefully, year after year, people that knew me 16 years ago when I started as a lead pastor, to now. Hopefully they would see growth and maturity, but those people that have known me that long would still be able, I'm sure, to rifle off things that Brian's not great at.
Speaker 1:Hopefully, the next 16 years I can continue to grow in, just as long as they don't say I like the old Pastor, brian, better right.
Speaker 2:Well, that Pastor Brian had more hair, he was thinner. They Brian had more hair, he was, he was thinner. They're probably more fun that that old pastor Brian's probably a little more fun.
Speaker 1:Oh, please have you, uh, and I won't take up too much more of your time. This has been a lot of fun.
Speaker 2:I really, it really has.
Speaker 1:It's been fun to be a part of it. Well, I hope you've enjoyed it half as much as I've enjoyed it. Okay, okay, have you ever thought about writing a book, and I mean, like you know, an autobiography? No, this is a podcast based on telling stories, you know, and I let my audience in a little bit at a time, but, yeah, I've never thought about writing a book about me.
Speaker 2:I have thought about writing a book and then my son Andrew, my first. We've talked about writing a book. If I wrote a book, it would be about God and the thing. The thing that I'd really love to write about is I did a sermon series on it years ago, called broken and restored, and it's just stories about God's use of broken people.
Speaker 1:Hey.
Speaker 2:Catherine.
Speaker 1:No, we're not done. Yeah, almost done. Wrapping up yeah, I know that I. We don't have batteries in the on, in the on-air light, so, yeah, no, we're still here. No, it's all right, it's all good. Hey, you know, we don't edit anything, this is all. Well, we can take photos. Yeah, well, you can take photos when we're done. Thanks, see, look people, I told you we don't edit anything. Warts and all. That's how this goes out.
Speaker 2:Well, so the book would be God using broken people throughout scripture Right. Very rarely is there a hero of scripture that there's nothing bad said about it. Right there's Daniel. Right there's Daniel.
Speaker 1:He's like the only one.
Speaker 2:I think so I think so.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean there's some ladies like we're talking about Hannah. Okay, right, hannah and Samuel. There's nothing bad said about her. Yeah, but most of the time, the heroes and heroines of the faith are broken people that, because of God's activity in their life, they did great things. So I'd love to write a book or books about that. Okay, my son Andrew and I thought about writing a book or books about that. Okay, my son Andrew and I thought about writing a book called what we wish we knew and things that I wish I knew as a young dad, that I know as an older dad, and things that he wish he knew now as a young man, that he wish he knew when he was 15. You know, you're not.
Speaker 2:You don't get a manual with kids and parenting has been one of the most challenging aspects of my life and Andrew and I have had a rocky start and rough aspects and I did things in a way that wasn't always best and, I think, in hindsight, right. So if he's a psychologist and me a pastor, writing a book and here's things I wish I knew, I wish that I would know when I was younger that yelling at my kid wasn't nearly as effective as talking with my kid over ice cream. I wish I knew that. I think my son wishes that he knew that you know, sometimes when I yell it's because, I'm afraid you know, as dads we don't have stereotypically, we don't have a string of emotions, right. We have happy and we have nothing and we have angry.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we have angry and fear comes out, oftentimes angry, okay, pain comes out oftentimes angry.
Speaker 1:Yes, definitely Right.
Speaker 2:But what my son hears is angry. Yeah, and what I'm meaning to, you know, when he's running out in the street and I just start screaming at them. That's not me being mad, that's me being scared.
Speaker 1:Yes, beating down the street? I never thought about that. I never thought about the fear part of anger.
Speaker 2:Never thought about that?
Speaker 1:Yes, you just touched on it.
Speaker 2:Pain and pain yes.
Speaker 1:I yes, that definitely, but I never thought about the fear factor.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that's one book, that, andrew and. I've thought about I think we'll write it at some point is a book designed to get fathers and sons, fathers and daughters Um, I'm not a mother so I can't, and he's not a daughter, so that might be a harder one.
Speaker 2:But it's for fathers and sons and fathers and daughters to come together and have discussions. And hey, dad, when you say this is what I hear, and have Dad say oh no, that's not what I meant to communicate, that's not what I meant to communicate, right? Oh? Or hey, child, when you do this, this is like when you ignore me. What bubbles up in my heart is oh no, I'm losing my child, you know, and the child's like no, just sometimes you're annoying and I need space you know and creating.
Speaker 2:Yeah, have a book where it creates a dynamic where fathers and children can communicate, before relationships are already broken. Because I know for me, so often I get parents comes like hey, brian, help me connect with my 16-year-old son. Yeah Well, man, I think it's still possible at 16. It would have been a whole lot easier had you started it for Right. And so, anyway, you asked about books. Those are probably. If I wrote a book, it would be either about something biblical or something relational that people can learn from my mistakes.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay. And for me I have again remember the podcast is going to be called who's this Guy. So I wanted to. You know, I thought about writing a book, an autobiography, and actually I started it last year. I got about and handwriting and all too. I didn't get real far, just time and that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1:And for me I need to be laser focused on something. I have to keep all the outside distractions away from me so I can work at the task at hand. And only because not because I think that I'm somebody special and I'm going to make the New York Times bestseller list, but maybe it's more be more therapeutic or cathartic for me to get it out from as far back as I can remember to the present, you know, just to do something like that. And then also because there's a lot of stuff that my kids don't know about me and I'm not saying it's bad or anything, although there's probably some mischievous. There's a lot of mischievous things that they probably don't know. But there's a lot that they do because they're fun stuff, they're fun stories. They like to hear those stories too. But just so that let's just say that this happens in the order it's supposed to, where I pass on before my kids that they have something to go back on and they can look at and they can read, and there's some documentation that came from dad.
Speaker 2:My great-grandmother. I think I shared this in a sermon a while back.
Speaker 1:You did.
Speaker 2:My great-grandmother wrote an autobiography yeah, my grandmother wrote an autobiography and both of their focus was so that the next generations could not necessarily focus on their good things or bad things, but focus on the thread of God's activity in their life, gotcha. And maybe that would be something like I want my family, the next generations, my friends, but maybe whoever else cares to read it.
Speaker 2:That's my point To see the thread of God in a broken guy like Ben, yeah, and all the incredible things that God could do in just a normal dude like Ben and through a normal dude like Ben. And I don't think there's enough of those out there, because I think everyone, I think there's probably plenty of people who think God can't do anything with them. They're too broken, they're too lost, they're too angry, they're too rebellious, they're too questioned, they're too whatever. They just assume that God can't. God can't, and I just disagree.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that was my whole thing, is I just get it out. Look, if there's stuff in there that becomes shocking, then it is, and if there's stuff that makes you happy, makes you laugh, makes you cry, whatever, just so that, whether it is my kids or my family, whomever would be interested in something like that, it's a real story. No nonsense, no funny business. No, uh, um, no filters, right, and no filters to no filters. Um, I, I came to the um. I came to the realization, um, through my, through the end of my first marriage and then trying to figure out what I was going to do with the rest of my adult years and we talked about this before there was a period of time where I thought I was Charlie Harper, minus the drugs okay, minus the drugs, but I was going to live my life like Charlie Harper and thumbs up to me. And it just found myself empty. There was. What was I getting out of it? Nothing.
Speaker 2:And what were you really contributing to it?
Speaker 1:I was just going to. And what was I really putting into it? A whole lot, and and, and I came to this realization and then it was, and then it was I met Catherine that there was going to be no more. There was going to be no more BS. I was. I would stand there naked in front of the world, because that's I mean.
Speaker 2:Look that might get you in trouble.
Speaker 1:Well, yes, okay but I'm just going to bare my soul and the person who's going to take this, then I think they're going to be the one that you know.
Speaker 2:They're a keeper, I think there's a confidence in it, Ben. We'll wrap up here in and I think there's a confidence in it, Ben.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we'll wrap up here in a minute.
Speaker 2:I think, bringing it full circle to salvation. I think, when we come to the spot of like God's okay with me and the broken parts of my life have been forgiven and God has empowered parts of my life, and I think, when we know who we are in Christ and we truly have confidence in that, what are we hiding from? I mean, if God is for me right, that's how the Bible says it If God's for me, who can stand against me? And I think the crux of the question for Christians is do you really believe that God's for you? And I think that there's a lot of people who claim God but don't know God and when it comes down to their ability to just, and when it comes down to their ability to just, here's who I am their struggle with. That is maybe a little bit of a betrayer of how they enter into a relationship with God.
Speaker 1:If we're hiding ourselves from God, then Last thing it's like Catherine said does house look okay for Pastor Brian? And I said I said look at it this way. She heard her name. I know she heard her name. I said look at it this way If we were inviting Jesus to dinner and we cleaned the house, he's already going to know what it looked like before he showed up anyway.
Speaker 2:right, but that's a guy thing Anytime people come over to my house it's like a day of cleaning.
Speaker 1:Okay, I know, I understand. That's how girls do it. I understand, I understand, I think All right.
Speaker 2:How we do it is if and when you come to my house. Just so you know If it's just me, I'm not cleaning up, it is what it is.
Speaker 1:I like it to be tidy myself. I do, I do, but you know it just came up, it came up.
Speaker 1:So, all right, Listen, I want to thank you so much for doing this. It means I know this for a fact. It means more to me than it does to you, I promise. I thank you for your time. This has been great conversation. Great conversation on my part, anyway, I hope so. I hope you've enjoyed it. Yeah, um, and I hope everybody that is not only a member of CBCC and not only a member of the church watches this and gets something out of it. Okay, cause, uh, that's what this is all about. Um, with that, it's a wrap.
Speaker 1:Once again, this program is available on multiple podcasts platforms like Apple podcasts, amazon music and Spotify, or just search the Ben Maynard Program, choose your option Buzzsprout, or again, if you can't resist this, or, in this case, over here too, and you're watching on YouTube. Subscribe to the channel, give me a thumbs up and leave a comment. All right, last but not least, follow me on Instagram Ben Maynard Program. That is it. We're done. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much to Pastor Brian. This has been great. Let me get this right here. This is the Ben Maynard Program. Tell a friend.